Just before falling asleep, last night, I found my thoughts turning to whether the book of Revelation was written before, or after AD70. It was a lingering curiosity after taking Dr. Heiser’s course “Why Do Christians Disagree about End Times? and late-night viewing of N.T. Wright videos on preterism.
A quick web search led to a useful excerpt from a book by Jonathan Welton where he lists many of the pre-AD70 arguments in one place. As it turns out, I was reading from the first edition of Jonathan’s book, “Raptureless” which he’s made available for reading online. The third edition of the same book was published in 2015.
An expanded version of the same excerpt is also published on Jonathan’s website in the first two chapters of his “The Art of Revelation.”
Apart from a video posted on the Divine Council forum, last year, I’m not familiar with Welton’s work. However, I found his website to be refreshing and his book worth reading and thought to share them, here. For a sample of Dr. Heiser’s thoughts on eschatology, checkout the transcript we posted, last week.
Welton Addresses Three Common Objections Stemming from the Title ‘Raptureless’
The excerpt, below, is written by Jonathan Welton. You can read more from him on his website: Welton Academy.
Excerpt of ‘Raptureless’ by Jonathan Welton
I have come to believe the majority of the Book of Revelation was written regarding events that took place at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. In order to believe that, we must first address the date of authorship. If the book was written in AD 96, as many modern teachers claim, then my point of view cannot be valid. Yet, I believe the overwhelming body of evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that Revelation was more likely written before AD 68. Let’s look at the proofs to establish the date of writing.
The Proofs
The primary reason some Bible teachers claim the Book of Revelation was written around AD 96 is because John noted in Revelation 1:9 that he was on the island of Patmos at the time he received the Revelation. There is some historical evidence that John was exiled to Patmos under the reign of Domitian between AD 81 and AD 96. Therefore, the book might have been written during that time—or so some claim. In reality, there are also historical documents that tell us John was exiled to Patmos at a much earlier date. Here I will share ten evidences that Revelation was written before AD 68.
1. The Syriac
We have the witness of one of the most ancient versions of the New Testament, called The Syriac. The second-century Syriac Version, called the Peshitto, says the following on the title page of the Book of Revelation:
Again the revelation, which was upon the holy John the Evangelist from God when he was on the island of Patmos where he was thrown by the emperor Nero.
Nero Caesar ruled over the Roman Empire from AD 54 to AD 68. Therefore, John had to have been on the island of Patmos during this earlier period. One of the oldest versions of the Bible tells us when Revelation was written! That alone is a very compelling argument.
2. Revelation 17:10
When we look at the internal evidence, we find a very clear indicator of the date of authorship in Revelation 17:10: “They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while” (Rev. 17:10). This passage, which speaks of the line of rulers in Rome, tells us exactly how many rulers had already come, which one was currently in power, and that the next one would only last a short while. Take a look at how perfectly it fits with Nero and the Roman Empire of the first century.
The rule of the first seven Roman Emperors is as follows:
“Five have fallen…”
Julius Caesar (49–44 BC)
Augustus (27 BC–AD 14)
Tiberius (AD 14–37)
Caligula (AD 37–41)
Claudius (AD 41–54)
“One is…”
Nero (AD 54–68)
“the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.”
Galba (June AD 68–January AD 69, a six month ruler-ship)
Of the first seven kings, five had come (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, and Claudius), one was currently in power (Nero), and one had not yet come (Galba), but would only remain a little time (six months). The current Caesar at the time of John’s writing was the sixth Caesar, Nero.
3. Those Who Pierced Him
As I discussed in depth in _Raptureless, _the Hebrew idiom “coming on clouds” speaks of God coming to bring judgment on a city or nation. That is what Jesus came to do in AD 70. Revelation 1:7 tells us who His judgment is against:__
Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen (Revelation 1:7 YLT).
Here, the phrase “those who did pierce him” refers to the people of the first century. According to this passage, they were expected to be alive at the time of Revelation’s fulfillment. The fact that “those who did pierce him” were not alive in AD 96, because they were killed in the slaughter of AD 70, is a clear indicator that Revelation was written before AD 70.
4. Jewish Persecution of Christians
The Jewish persecution of Christianity in Revelation 6 and 11 indicates a pre-AD 70 authorship. After the slaughter of AD 70, the Jews were not in a position to persecute the early Church. In fact, since AD 70, the Jews have never been in a position to be able to persecute Christians.
5. Judaizing Heretics in the Church
The activity of the Judaizing heretics in the Church (see Rev. 2:6,9,15; 3:9) is emphasized in the letters to the churches in Revelation. This tells us something about the dating of the letter, because the Judiazing heretics lost a great deal of influence after Paul’s epistles were circulated. Also, it makes sense that the heresy would have been a much smaller issue after so many Jews were slaughtered in AD 70. Only an early date of authorship allows for the heretics to be a significant problem.
6. Existence of Jerusalem and the Temple
The existence and integrity of Jerusalem and the Temple (see Rev. 11) suggest a date before the destruction of AD 70. If the Book of Revelation was written in AD 96, only twenty-six years after the destruction of the Temple and the Holy City, it is shocking John didn’t mention the recent massacre of the city and Temple.
7. Time-related Passages
The internal time-related portions of Revelation indicate that the events it foretells will come to pass shortly (see Rev. 1:1,3; 22:10,20). If this is read with an unbiased perspective, we can easily conclude Revelation was not written about events 2,000 years in the future. The time texts are bookends, which frame the content of the book.
8. John’s Appearance in AD 96
Another reason to believe the Book of Revelation was written at the earlier date is because Jerome noted in his writings that John was seen in AD 96 and that he was so old and infirm that “he was with difficulty carried to the church, and could speak only a few words to the people.”1 We must put this fact together with Revelation 10:11, which says John must “prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.” It is difficult to imagine John would be able to speak to many nations and many kings at any date after AD 96 since he was already elderly and feeble.
9. Timetable Comparison with Daniel
In Daniel, the author was told to “seal up the vision, for it is a long way off” (Dan. 12:4)—which referred to a 483-year wait until Jesus came to fulfill the prophecy. By contrast, in Revelation, John was told to “not seal up the vision because it concerns things which must shortly come to pass” (Rev 22:10). If 483 years was considered a long way off, meaning that the vision should be sealed, it makes no sense that 2,000 plus years would be considered “shortly to come to pass” and not to be sealed up. Clearly, the obvious answer is Revelation shouldn’t be sealed because it was about to happen at the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem.
10. Only Seven Churches
The existence of only seven churches in Asia Minor (see Rev. 1) also indicates a writing date before the greater expansion of Christianity into that region, which occurred after the fall of Jerusalem.
The Other Perspective
Those who believe in the later date of authorship for the Book of Revelation mainly lean on the fact that Irenaeus the Bishop of Lyons (AD 120–202) claimed John wrote while on Patmos under Domitian’s reign. This alone could seem compelling, except Irenaeus is noted for making mistakes in recording dates and times in his writings. Irenaeus is the same Church father who claimed Jesus’ ministry lasted nearly twenty years, from the age of thirty until the age of fifty.
Because Revelation contains no internal evidence for a later date of authorship, proponents of the later date must lean only upon external evidence to force this conclusion. Even the external evidence of Irenaeus is not a reliable source, and many scholars have even picked apart Irenaeus’ quote about the date of authorship as possibly being a very misunderstood quotation.
Kenneth Gentry has done the world an invaluable service by writing his doctoral dissertation on the dating of Revelation. His irrefutable paper is easily purchasable as a book under the title: Before Jerusalem Fell. John A.T. Robinson has also graced us all with his book, Redating the New Testament, in which he proves all the books of the New Testament were written before AD 70.
Considering these strong proofs for an early date of writing alongside the very poor evidence in favor of a later date, I believe it is common sense to date the writing of Revelation prior to AD 70.
28 Comments
God knows. Just wanted to add another playlist from Don Preston's site that I overlooked in the vitally reccomended education on this. https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhTk2RamIg8tamkpiVqJer7YMmSiSOaeb
I humbly sumbit to you brothers, as one who did not understand the technicle parts of this , only a few weeks ago, the listening to Don Preston"s videos on this in binge manner. It is the most Purifying of hundreds of Biblical verses and teachings that I have found in my entire Life !!
One of the interesting concepts that is not discussed much in Preterism, is that- the coming of Jesus in Judgement is not what the Apostles were expecting. But this is consistent with every expectation of a major God event, like the birth of the Messiah, Him not being a military dictator, the baptism of the Spirt, the judgement of AD70, and now the Last Judgement to come.
It is very possible that they saw Jesus during the AD70 judgement. There are jewish witnesses that saw armies of angels during that time.
I was thinking about this last night, and came to what I want to call Continuance Unto Complete Fulfillment(ism).
The words of the Book of Revelation are true before they were written. They are true when they were written. They are true for the past 2,000+ years. They are true now. And they are true tomorrow.
And that's all I'm going to say about it.
Blessings…
–j9
This does sound like an interesting read, especially for free. 🙂 I'll have to see how it fits into my current supernatural worldview. I'll have to look at Heiser's stuff you mentioned too.
Marten said
Marten. I found something on this Googling around:
Patent Squatting
There is a practice of filing patents for ideas and then just sitting back and waiting for someone else to infringe on it. The original patent holder never had any intention of selling the invention, but relies on lawsuits instead for the income. The patents are worded as vaguely as possible in order to cast the widest net. I thought I had read somewhere that a rule was created to try and prevent this kind of practice, whereby the inventor has a certain time period in which to actually act on producing his invention. If the inventor fails to make any progress in producing his invention before this deadline, the patent expires. Is this true? If not, it sounds like a good idea. We need a similar law for domain name squatting. People who try to make a living by leeching off the work of others while doing absolutely nothing themselves are a scourge on society.
It was a rhetorical question, Robert, to show how arguments get started just due to
The word, itself. The word "preterite" merely describes the past tense of a language. When ALL of prophecy is referred to
As having been fulfilled in the past, that would be referred to as full-preterism.
And yet, the belief that any prophecy concerning Jesus has occurred, is preterist.
Thanks for your explanation, Terence. But I have my limitations in a lot of stuff. I simply cannot grasp what all this means…
Patent squatting is the practice of buying up valuable patents for the sole
Purpose of keeping them from being developed.
Through such means, valuable work and contributions can be purchased
Out of existence for long periods of time.
Wow, Martin. We are spiritually connected very well. To let you know, I did Not see your comments above until After I posted . We were writing at the same time. And we were discerning the same thing about the importance of this topic . Love you Marten !
Yes, I have learned that , Definitions , are a big part of Everything . I like to call it " Uncorrupted understanding of all God has done for us " . Preterism brings us to the understanding in Pureness , Biblical teaching. Bretheren, let us behold why this topic is important . As with all things of God for us, we are involved in this WETHER WE KNOW IT, or not.
There is a REASON why this is of -God Awesome -importance. And you guys like J9, Marten, who are obviously tactical spiritual warfare fighters, should relish what we are going to say here.
PRETERISM ( or Covenant Eschatology , or what ever you creative and sharp guys want to call it ) is IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF ITS KEY RELATIONSHIP TO GRACE . Anyone who even just knows a little bit about what it is , will immediately discern that.
THAT, is why I have said already , that I truely actually held to Preterism , because I have always been walking in the Spirit , and immediately recognized its relation to GRACE , when I first heard the technicle doctrines of it.
So lets just go through some of it here.
# 1 — If we think that the ressurection and the end of all things is sometime in the future , our flesh thinks it has to accomplish, strive, more , and THAT is what is meant by living the cross life , instead of the victorious ressurection that was already accomplised , in our bowing our knees to God , and eternally humbling ourselves and proclaming that God is God forever, and we are not. In Preterism , death and ressurection, fulfillment of the Day of the Lord, judgement, and the final endless age , has already come !
I want to stop right here and address what Terence said above. Am I correct in understanding Terence, that you also, have known ,only in a limited way, about Preterism ?
One of the reasons I say this Terence, is because , once you get even just a little deeper into studying it with a truthful Theologian like Don Preston, you DONT EVEN ASK that question that you asked. Because you understand all that Christ accomplished !
So let me just give a #2 , because I started that format here.
#2 — We see the realization of what we Knew had to be a really great love ,that God loved us with, in Preterism, and not with some weird creepy waiting for 2000 years , with a bunch of confused events and trials and other things to make it through. If we just see that CHRIST , being who he is, GOD, is the One event horizen , that all men are connected to, then we start to understand what God actually did , in manifesting himself in Jesus. God, who is All in all.
I see people below the surface of the earth working on the improvement of kind of flying dishes. From above they are round, from the side just as you would expect, more like a thick pancake. They can flight so fast it is almost incredible, maybe even faster than light, what gives problems for the few people within. These "flying saucers" fly manned and unmanned. By humans. They can use their stealth mode if they like.
Have no idea if there is a patent or not… and am not going to tell more about this subject.
Please continue this original thread…
About patent squatting, I have really no idea what it means. I looked it up on some sites but still have no clue.
Sorry Terence, I have no idea…
Yep, that's one of the big word problems when throwing around the word "preterism": just how
much of prophecy do you think has already happened?
"If it's true, I would have heard about it", is no longer true or common sense, unfortunately.
On a scale of 1 to 10, how prevalent is patent squatting in all of this, Marten?
Another interesting article from Doug! I hadn't seen this before. Thanks for the link Marten.
You guys, I didnt even know the FULL STUDIED teachings about Preterism until just awhile ago, even though I followed the truths of it simply by walking in the Spirit. When you listen with an open ear to videos like Don Prestons, you are amazed at how things that people talked about in a confused way. All makes perfect sense ! As you see what all the portions in scripture are actually meaning !
This may also include one's Calendar and Dictionary.
Hi Sluggo. No, it would not be in the history books. Maybe in some. When you seek, you shall find… Also about the church in Sardis.
It's like mainstream science. If you do not belong to this group you have no access to the right magazines to publish. Almost nobody knows about your discoveries. I follow a little bit a lot of new things being discovered in the world. But the most important discoveries are hidden away. Because of the scientists do not belong to the mainstream media. Or because the technology is kept hidden by governmental and other big organizations.
There are branches of technology only the brightest people work, but nobody knows even the name of these branches. Everything is kept as secret as possible. What I can say: the real technology is about 40 years further than what is being published today as "newest inventions." It is almost impossible to get access to all this.
(Correction: 40 years I am not sure, sorry about this, because it's some e-curve. But it is very far ahead.)
What I try to say, when you are looking for the truth, you shall find it, sooner or later. For instance all the texts that seem to prove preterism is something stupid from a bunch of mislead persons, can be explained in another way. It depends on your "world-view." Doug did write a nice series of articles on his website about the world-view. If you look at it from another perspective, all Bible texts seem to shift into in another position.
I think the UNDERSTANDING of the Book of Revelation won't be complete(d) until we all see Jesus in His resurrected body, face to face, and eye to eye.
Another thing that just came to mind:
Revelation 1:7
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[a]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
If this already happened wouldn't it be in all the history books? 😉
It's interesting that I coincidentally heard a sermon on the way home from work on the local Christian radio station where the Pastor was saying that the Churches in Revelation didn't all exist pre 70 AD according to the early Church fathers. Then he mentioned the Church in Sardis. Any thoughts on this? I don't really know much about early Church history.
Awesome! Thanks for the link and the suggested order of watching, Robert.
Here is that link to Don Prestons videos . Go to where it says " Playlist " at the very top, to get to where he has all the teachings in neat order. This is exciting brothers ! http://privideos.com/
This is neat that we are in synchronization here Terence . I mean , I feel like you do like when your just about at the end of putting a puzzle together, and you see out of the corner of your eye just where the remaining pieces are going to go . Or a rope that is all in knots and as you get to the last few untaglements you see the straight rope coming !
God is aweing me right now since starting this study of Preterism a few weeks ago. I am amazed at how it is making everything fit together concerning all the confusion and different ideas that we all hear. I was one of those who never really looked into this and kind of just went along with what was the most popular veiw or something.
God knows, like I said , I have actually always held to Preteristic reality , simply because I was a true believer , and simply read the truths stated in say, like, Johns letters.
However, ever since hearing Mike Heisers teachings on Eschatology , I began to get the raus of light regarding this and then finally, about 3 weeks ago I decided to really dig into it.
I found some good thorough websites on it . And yes Terence . It has several ramifications ! And those are Clearly explained in Don Preston' s videos. The playist I recommend first , are the " Eschatology of the Parables. " The Zechariah ones. The Thessalonian ones, " Already, but not yet" ones, and then the Ressurection ones.
Now, to back up just a little bit here , I do have this one friend on Facebook who is really , really Hyper – Preterist , amd she posted often, so I was getting good doses kind of like hot drink you have to drink slowly so you can get accustomed to it . It helped for when the radical things I was about to hear , came into my ears. And for one like me , who had just kind of gone along with the common views , just that one thing about Revelations being written before 70AD , was contrary to what I had ever heard.
I am really actually amazed that I had never even heard of Preterism , growing up in church all my life like I have. That single fact just right there, should be a wake up call for any one reading this to look into what they just except as " The" truth, in any church they might attend.
But I am starting to go into more than what I wanted to say, just right here. And that is , Yes, Terence , it is neat that you gave this article on exactly one of the things I heard , as I started to study this , and said " Oh, Revelations written before 70AD , that is different from what I have heard, I need to look into That one " . And then here you are , posting this wonderul article on that very topic !
What I have been doing , is listening to Don K. Preston's videos , of which I will come back and link too. Of you listen to these , on his Playlist site, in order , you get a Very good education on Preterism . I think Don is a Excellent teacher . He explains things from Every angle. He is very good. The videos are Very well done , Just the comfortable length of time for each one , and it is clear what is being taught.
So, on we go, into the light of what Preterism shows us !
Jonathan's reasons for dating of the Book of Revelation to be before 68AD has me thinking
Through preterism, as well, Robert.
It leads quickly into dominionism, as well. IOW, if post-millennialism is true, doesn't it
Have dominionist ramifications?
Some time ago I read this free online copy. It's easy and refreshing to me. Jonathan Welton, a seer, runs a school for a Christian belief in the supernational, like we experience as seers, prophets and more.
For me a nice, short and clear video.
This is the video referred to in the article: