As described in a recent post, there are all kinds of great uses for transcripts, and I’ve started creating them for video and audio materials important enough to have in text format.
The first transcript I completed is of a documentary interview with Jordan Peterson conducted by David Fuller for Rebel Wisdom entitled, “Truth in the Time of Chaos.” You can find that transcript on McGillespie.com.
This second transcript is the first part of a presentation Michael Heiser gave in 2013 to Future Congress 2. It’s entitled “The Post-Christian Future, Part One, Thinking Theologically About the Utopian Impulse as a Perversion of the Judeo-Christian Worldview.”
(Note: I’ll be posting the transcript on the forum. What follows, here, are short excerpts)
The presentation was given while Mike was preparing to write the sequel to “The Facade.” Part one is ~9000 words and includes 25 slides. All the material (and excerpts, below) is owned and copyrighted by Dr. Heiser and please consider supporting his work in creating, presenting, and posting such presentations on Youtube. The transcript is merely an attempt to make video and audio material more accessible.
MH: There’s always been sort of this impulse to either create the perfect society or more pertinently, force it on people. And so, I see looming on the horizon a new effort at creating a wonderful, blissful, totalitarian state and I want to sort of pursue that a little bit and talk about it. And again, for those of you here, and for those of you who listen later to the presentation, I just want to get you thinking about why it is that this always seems to rear its ugly head and why even Christians, at times, are not immune from this notion that we can make things perfect, that we can just make it alright if we did this, that, and the other thing, everything would be ok.
MH: So, I want to try to think theologically about those things, and we’ll see what happens. So, here is our roadmap for the day.
Definition & Relevance
MH: So, first part: definition and relevance. Utopia as you may or may not know, again, is this idea of a perfect human society. The term itself refers to an ideal place that actually doesn’t exist.
MH: It’s imaginary, you know, it’s conceptual. It’s this grand wish, something that can’t be real in the real world but boy we wish it was, that sort of thing.
MH: And again the breakdown of the term utopia: no place, a good or no place. And you’ll see it spelled either with the “e” or with the “o” forming the “u”, in either case. But it actually could have either derivation depending on who’s using it.
MH: An imaginary world where social justice is achieved, whatever that means, and the means of guaranteeing all that is secure. That’s where the control comes in. So that’s what we’re talking about. And as far as the impulse, what are the elements?
Examples
MH: And HG Wells, of course, a lot of a lot of their thinking was influenced by eugenics. To create the ideal society you need ideal people, right? You need to sort of weed out the unfortunate or less desirable elements to the human population. So that was very common in the United States. A lot of later not-so-eugenic theory and practice was drawn from American and British writing. Those were the seed beds to some of those things that we would come later on.
MH: Marxist Leninism, of course, this would be the Lennon experiment with Marxism. Of course the Revolution of 1917. You know, again, the working class. We’re going to create the community where the worker is in power. Ostensibly, this is how it’s marketed. This is how it’s put forth.
How It’s Sold vs. Actual Result
MH: Nowadays we refer to eugenics as genetic engineering and genetic selection. Genetics is just the new eugenics. And I’m not here to demonize all genetic research because that would just be ridiculous too. But, once you have the power of the genome in your hand, eugenics is really easy. You know, it’s just it’s just how do we how do we accomplish this thing we can easily do now on a wide scale? That’s the only question you need to ask.
MH: Politically, of course, world peace freedom from crime which in their right mind would oppose that? Well, I’m not opposed to that. I am opposed to statist fiefdom. If you’re a statist, you are anti-individual. Think about that. That means if you’re in control you get to criminalize practically anything. Criminalize self-protection —that would be like gun laws taking guns away okay. We’re going to criminalize your ability to protect yourself. Why? Because your emphasis is on the state, the utopia, as opposed to the individual.
MH: Citizens self-sustenance, we talked about that with the food supply. You have each individual state, state being defined as country here, trying to implement their view of perfection, their view of the ideal situation. But ultimately you have a push toward global government.
Progress or Human Control?
MH: Progress, human improvement, science & technology. Human control is what this means in our day and age. So, whereas we would call it progress human improvement through science and technology what it really means is control of people through science and technology.
MH: We have information control. In other words, we’ll fill your head with what it needs to be filled with. Knowledge is power. It’s easy to propagandize things like the political process. Eugenics, that’s progress because we’re weeding out…we’re clearing out the gene pool there and that a good thing. Police state we have to have a police state to enforce progress. Commerce comes under state control. Basically, everything you do, if it’s viewed as being an impediment to progress, then it needs to be controlled or eliminated. We have to be able to keep the progress going. We don’t want progress to stop.
MH: Now, utopian impulse as a biblical perversion. And this is where your handout comes in I’m going to go through this quickly, and I’ll tell you what the handout supplements.
MH: Here are the fundamental myths of utopianism. The idea that humans are perfectible, that’s a myth. Either on an individual level or a corporate level, it ignores human capacity for evil. It ignores you know the condition of the heart. But it’s a myth that drives utopianism. The other myth is that you can force human perfectibility. That just isn’t going to work. So enforcing an Edenic state. In other words, it would be Eden by human effort. Eden created by a ruling human elite.
Babel and Myths of Utopianism
MH: Babel is a big deal with this because if you understand what’s going on at Babel a ziggurat, Tower of Babel, was built to bring the divine to earth. We’re going to build you a house we’re going to build you home because gods live on mountains so let’s like build our own mountain so that the deity will come here and when he comes here we can negotiate; we can we can kind of barter.
MH: It’s the same logic of idolatry. The ancient person wasn’t wasn’t an idiot he knows that this thing he just made isn’t his creator so why do they make idols? Because they believe deities can be summoned to reside there; you locate the deity. This is why Israel was forbidden to make graven images because Yahweh cannot be tamed. Yahweh will not be brought anywhere for negotiation. That’s up to him. It’s a completely different perspective on it. But you have the same thing going on with Babel. We are going to reestablish Eden we are going to bring the deity back to earth. We’re separated from the deity now we got kicked out in all that stuff we’re going to bring the deity back down to earth, and then we’re going to you know do all this stuff, all this good stuff. Well, again it’s a usurpation of God’s plan God’s punishment. Humans trying to remedy and re-kick-start what they ruined. Babel is sort of the beginning living illustration of this idea that hey let’s bring heaven to earth. Utopian thinking. Heaven is not going to come to earth until God wills it and not before. But that’s what the utopian misses or hates take your pick, one way or the other.
Looking into various subjects, from MK ultra and other forms of mind control, to the information coming from whistleblowers/insiders, the use of ceremonial magic for perverse reasons by the elite is really not that far-fetched. Although scary to contemplate, it does happen. Those who we consider our leaders, those in positions of great power, those behind the global corporatocracy we see today and the propaganda we’re all subject to, could all be guided by ‘spirits’ from places we have yet to learn about. And as a result, the massive manipulation of humanity could be guided by these ‘demonic’ entities.
Then comes to ‘Secret’ conclusions.
The main takeaway from this article should be that our connection to spirit is strong, and there are those that dwell in other worlds that can assist us, but not for our own material desires that stem from human greed, ego, and ignorance. If your heart is pure and intentions are good, if you would like to use manifestation for the goodwill of the whole, then you need not fear talking to and acknowledging this realm.
This is consistent with “The Secret” where the law of attraction puts a universal energy source at the disposal of the magician. The results of magic rituals, we’re told, are determined solely by the thoughts and intentions of the magician.
An Unexplained Leap
Walia’s conclusions also make an unexplained leap from the rituals upon which they’re derived.
Hall, and most of the historical figures he cites as having been influenced (Socrates, Napoleon, Faust), were interacting with individual spirit entities each with unique characteristics. And yet, in Walia’s conclusions about them, the personal demons of the magicians somehow become a collective “it” rather than a personalized “they.” In contrast, the invocations in “The Complete Book of Magic Science” always call upon “the invisible inhabitants of the elements” using a specific name.
For Walia, the unseen realm does have duality: it has both good and evil demons. But that’s where his distinctions end. Unlike the rituals performed by the elites of his subject, he makes no distinctions about what or who is being contacted.
Protected by their purity, we’re told, the white magician is safe to draw upon the collective energy of an amorphous host of demons functioning like the “Force” in star wars. If one has the pure intentions of Yoda, only the good demons respond, and vice versa for Darth Vader.
Cosmic Powers Over This Present Darkness
Though Walia makes no biblical references, his “elite … those in positions of great power, those behind the global corporatocracy” are called cosmocrats in Ephesians 6:12.1
“Cosmocrat” is anglicized from the greek κοσμοκράτορας or kosmokratoras. They are the “world influence of any influential, governing authority over the inhabited world understood in terms of physical control; including both human and preternatural authorities.”2
The entities (“those that dwell in other worlds”) being called on for guidance and power are the preternatural counterparts of the cosmocrats: “the rulers … the authorities … the cosmic powers over this present darkness.1 These terms have one thing in common: they are all terms of geographic dominion.3
Their Beliefs, Not Yours
If all of this seems far-fetched, esoteric, or inapplicable to real life, take it up with the elites in Walia’s article. It’s their actions and beliefs that are of concern. One need not prove the existence of the unseen realm to discuss the behaviors of those declaring that they seek power from it.
If the invisible entities the elites are calling on for power don’t exist then what’s all the fuss about? Again, the “fuss” is about the actions and beliefs of those in earthly positions of power. If a psychopath threatens, “I’ve been commanded by Satan to kill you” the immediate problem is his belief in Satan, not yours.
Ceremonial Magic
What is ceremonial magic? The works of multiple scholars, from Plato to Manly P. Hall and further down the line, suggest it is essentially the use of rituals and techniques to invoke and control “spirits” or lifeforms that could be existing within other dimensions or worlds. For example, according to Hall, “a magician, enveloped in sanctified vestments and carrying a wand inscribed with hieroglyphic figures, could by the power vested in certain words and symbols control the invisible inhabitants of the elements and of the astral world. While the elaborate ceremonial magic of antiquity was not necessarily evil, there arose from its perversion several false schools of sorcery, or black magic.”
The essence of magic is bypassing God or Godly means to do something. The worst of all forms is to involve the lower-g gods forbidden in the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods before me.”4 Ancient Israelites would have understood such a god to be “a supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force.”2
Plato Was Right
Yet if we examine the works of Plato, we see he specifically condemns, both in the Laws and in the Republic, the idea that “gods” can be influenced by the performance of certain rituals — called “necromancy” or “magical attack.” He believed those who try to control the spirit world should be penalized.
The Bible is clear that lower-g gods exist5, and that they are not to be tangled with.6 Plato’s belief was consistent with these prohibitions.
For the Jew, and later the Christian, it has always been “black” to communicate with elohim other than Yahweh. All magic, in this sense, is black.
Socrates was Almost Good Enough?
Socrates, about whom Plato wrote much, also spoke of an entity that guided him. It was never given a name, but references to it ranged from daemon to daimon. Socrates believed this entity was a gift, and manifested itself in the form of the voice within, something we all possess. His communication with this entity was actually used as one of the charges against him when he was put to death. Socrates believed it to be a link between mortal man and God.
Socrates seems to be an exception when it comes to using these concepts for perverse reasons, and, as Hall points out, he provided evidence that “the intellectual and moral status of the magician has much to do with the type of elemental he is capable of invoking. But even the daemon of Socrates deserted the philosopher when the sentence of death was passed.”
If Socrates’ intellectual and moral status were not enough what made Hall believe the average man would be safe in practicing “white” magic?
Good men are capable of invoking evil spirits. The question is not whether they are able, but whether they are willing.
The ‘Guided’ First Whistleblower
He (Socrates) was put to death for “corrupting the youth” and spreading “false” information amongst the people, but looking back, he seems to be a figure more like our modern day revolutionaries than a malevolent influence, put to death for exposing the aristocracy’s secrets and encouraging people to question the true nature of reality, to question the doctrine that had been provided to the masses by those in power.
In Socrates lifetime the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (Pentateuch) were assembled, and the term “Torah” first used to refer to them. What better time to start “exposing the aristocracy’s secrets and encouraging people to question the true nature of reality” then in parallel with the 66 books of the Bible that would soon encourage the entire world to do exactly that?!
Who’s in Control?
In the Faustian bargain, the recipient becomes at the disposal of the devil after fame and fortune are delivered. Indeed, people seem more likely to become at the mercy of these things than harness them for the good of humanity.
For Hall, the “invisible inhabitants of the elements” are put under the control of the magician who’s used just the right combination of symbols, cloths, words, and ceremony to conjure them. Why would Hall presume that such inhabitants are controllable?
Once conjured, rather than “control the invisible inhabitants” the magician more likely must cede control to them; presumably a problem worse than being only guided.
Who’s More Powerful?
Those seeking more power from “invisible inhabitants of the elements” already have earthly power. Wouldn’t those who could provide more be more powerful than the seeker; the grantor superior to the grantee?
Phenomena like these appear in various cultures during different time periods all throughout human history, so what makes us think these practices have stopped today?”
Indeed, these occult practices have been occurring since at least the time of Moses (1500-1300 B.C.). They were proscribed in the Old Testament, and yet, have continued throughout human history. Their prevalence, today, is such that one can hardly process the news without an understanding of their implications.
Though I disagree with Walia’s conclusions, I recommend his article for the awareness it brings to these practices. The cosmocrats are real, and so are the entities they’re calling upon for guidance and power.
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Eph 6:12). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ↩
Sean Boisen, Mark Keaton, Jeremy Thompson, and David Witthoff. Bible Sense Lexicon: Dataset Documentation. Lexham Press: Faithlife Corp. 2017 (DB version 2017-08-15T17:40:39Z) ↩
“rulers” (archonton or archon), “principalities” (arche), “powers”/“authorities” (exousia), “powers” (dynamis), “dominions”/“lords” (kyrios), “thrones” (thronos), “world rulers” (kosmokrator). These lemmas have something in common—they were used both in the New Testament and other Greek literature to denote geographical domain authority. Michael S. Heiser, The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, loc. 6093. Kindle Edition ↩
The first commandment. The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ex 20:3). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ↩
“God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah”, The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ps 82:1–2). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ↩
“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. (Dt 18:10–12, see also Leviticus 19:26, Lev 19:31; Lev 20:6, Lev 20:27) The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ↩
This is the advanced version of the Story of the Bible Logos Layout demonstrated in a previous video. We’re going to pick up where that video left off adding pictures and enhancing the ability to navigate story elements with automatic sync.
The Bible does not always unfold in chronologically which makes it hard to grasp the story from reading in the sequence of the canon. Unfortunately, the “find box” in the event navigator is limited making it easy to get lost and hard to reorient yourself when you do. The remedy for this is the logos explorer.
Use Logos Explorer for Reorientation
With the Explorer set to the same linkset as your Bible, you’ll have three options to reorient and get back in sync with the story: through the event navigator, the explorer, or from your Bible.
Additional Benefits
There are two added benefits of having the explorer in this layout:
The “Media” tab in the explorer automatically finds all the pictures in your library related to the passage you’re reading (though I recommend keeping the “media” tab closed until you want to find more images, so it doesn’t search continually while the narration moves from verse to verse.)
The notations in the event navigator are hot-linked to open in the Factbook.
This advanced story layout is the centerpiece of my morning routine. I highly recommend this layout for writers or anyone looking to reach a deeper understanding of the narrative structures of the Bible.
One of my favorite ways to read the Bible is to listen to it being read aloud. By listening, instead of reading, I can more easily focus on the story the words are intended to convey. If that seems child-like it’s because it is. It’s also the most demanding and thrilling “reading” I’ve ever done. And, if sophisticated describes “the degree of complexity or that which appeals to those with worldy knowledge or experience” then, yeah, it’s that too.
I would argue that books are the “new kid on the block” for human communication. People have been telling each other stories since there was a second pair of ears to hear them. And the first person to exist probably told stories to themself! How long after storytelling did books come about? Nobody knows. But there’s is no doubt about which came first.
Wired for Story
People are wired for story; we think in pictures and learn from narrative. Want to explain something beyond words? Show a picture or paint one with the words you thought the idea was beyond. Want to impart lasting knowledge? Tell stories about those pictures.
It should come as no surprise, then, that God’s word came to us first by voice, and then in story. For all its many uses in describing the relationships between abstract entities, math is most certainly not the first language of God.
Introducing Basic Story Layout
This is more than enough to introduce a favorite morning ritual: listening to the Bible while focusing on the story. It’s the first part of my morning routine and great for writers or anyone looking to reach a deeper understanding of the narrative structures of the Bible. I use it to keep story, characters, and plot elements (and their relationships to other stories) at the forefront of my reading/listening.
Wisdom, prayer, songs, and stories within stories telling the Big Story. That’s what the Bible is. And yet, there’s more to the Big Story than what’s on the page.
Once absorbed, story becomes the raw material from which we build and live our own. And our story becomes part of HIStory, not in canon, but as Paul filled up what was lacking in Christ’s afflictions.
Like it or Not: Narrative is Your Premise
The most important decisions I’ve ever made were deciding what stories were true enough to build my life on. Disagree? Yeah, sure, tell me a story about it. Wherever you may be on that journey, perhaps this morning ritual and layout may be of assistance.
The biblical use of elohim is not hard to understand once we know that it isn’t about attributes. What all the figures on the list have in common is that they are inhabitants of the spiritual world. In that realm there is hierarchy.
For example, Yahweh possesses superior attributes with respect to all elohim. But God’s attributes aren’t what makes him an elohim, since inferior beings are members of that same group. The Old Testament writers understood that Yahweh was an elohim—but no other elohim was Yahweh. He was species-unique among all residents of the spiritual world.
This is not to say that an elohim could not interact with the human world. The Bible makes it clear that divine beings can (and did) assume physical human form, and even corporeal flesh, for interaction with people, but that is not their normal estate. Spiritual beings are “spirits” (1 Kgs. 22:19–22; John 4:24; Heb. 1:14; Rev. 1:4). In like manner, humans can be transported to the divine realm (e.g., Isa. 6), but that is not our normal plane of existence. As I explained earlier, the word elohim is a “place of residence” term. It has nothing to do with a specific set of attributes.
Countless books pass through my hands each year. Evangelical publishers send me their neaw titles routinely. Once in a while, I will interview the authors. Most of the time I don’t.
Recently, however, I came across a book where I actually found fresh content that was significantly helpful to my own thinking. Given how much I’ve read over the years, this rarely happens. Most Christian books today simply repeat what others have already written.
Here’s the story.
While doing my research on my upcoming book on the kingdom of God (due to release Summer 2018), I began reading everything I could find on the world system (which is one of the primary enemies of God’s kingdom). This led me to take a fresh look at what Scripture calls the “principalities and powers.”
In exploring the “principalities and powers” in the world of biblical scholarship, I came across Michael Heiser’s book The Unseen Realm.
While reading the book, Heiser and I began an email dialogue that delved deeper into the themes of his book and my specific area of interest. I then followed that dialogue up with the following interview for this blog. Below you can read Heiser’s answers to my interview questions regarding the content of his book The Unseen Realm. (Our own private dialogue isn’t reflected in this interview.)
The most important contribution of The Unseen Realm in my own thinking is Heiser’s treatment of cosmic geography. His work on this subject colored in many gaps that I never observed or considered before, particularly the detailed parallels between Pentecost and Babel as well as God’s relationship to the nations of the world in biblical history.
I can’t say this about most authors today, but I owe a debt to Heiser for showing me aspects of the principalities and powers that I’ve never seen before nor read in any other scholar, theologian, or commentator.
Instead of asking, “what is your book about,” I’m going to ask the question that’s behind that question. And that unspoken question is, “how are readers going to benefit from reading your book?”
Michael S. Heiser: Several ways. First, if reviews and interactions I’ve had with readers over the last year are any indication, _Unseen Realm _trains readers to contextualize their Bible. We think “reading the Bible in context” means thinking about the handful of verses before and after the verses we’re looking at on the page. That isn’t the case. While that’s important, context is so much wider than a handful of verses.
What I mean by context is worldview—having the ancient Israelite or first-century Jew in your head as you read. How would an ancient Israelite or first-century Jew read the Bible—what would they be thinking in terms of its meaning? The truth is that if we put one of those people into a small group Bible study and asked them what they thought about a given passage meant, their answer would be quite a bit different in many cases than anything the average Christian would think. They belonged to the world that produced the Bible, which is the context the Bible needs to be understood by.
Our contexts are foreign. They derive from church tradition that is thousands of years removed from the people who wrote Scripture and the audience to whom those people wrote. _Unseen Realm _demands people read the text of Scripture—particularly in regard to supernaturalism—the way ancient people would have read it. Second, it exposes people in the church to high scholarship—peer-reviewed material produced by biblical scholars—but in readable, normal language used by non-specialists.
It’s important for people in the Church to realize that the way they talk and think about the Bible isn’t the way Bible scholars talk and think about it—and I’m including “Bible-believing” scholars there. There is a wide gap between the work of biblical scholars, whose business it is to read the text of the Bible in its own worldview context, and what you hear in church.
Scholarship aimed at truly understanding what the biblical writers meant often does not filter down into the church and through the pulpit to folks who show up on Sunday. I think that’s just wrong, but scholars rarely make any effort to decipher their own scholarly work for people outside the ivory tower. _Unseen Realm _deliberately does that. Though readers might think that things in the book are novel since they never heard them in church or read them in a creed, every paragraph is the result of peer-reviewed scholarship. People need to know what they’re missing.
Over the years, I’ve met some Christians who deny the reality of the demonic/satanic world. They believe that the cosmology of Jesus and Paul was archaic. Mental illnesses were ascribed to “demons.” And “Satan” and “principalities and powers” were metaphors for personal and structural evil, etc. What would you say to such people in order to convince them that the spiritual worldview of Jesus and Paul does in fact reflect reality, even in the 21st century?
Michael S. Heiser: Well, the first thing I’d say is that their worldview isn’t the worldview of Jesus, Paul, or any of the biblical writers and characters. And if you don’t have the worldview of the people who produced the Bible (under inspiration no less), you can’t understand what they were trying to communicate in many respects. Biblical people weren’t modern people. That’s self-evident no matter how much we try to deny it. We doubt the supernatural because we’ve either been taught to deny it (thinking—wrongly—that it’s incompatible with science) or because we just want to be comfortable.
We impose our modern worldview on the Bible to make it conform to our intellectual happy place. But we deceive ourselves into thinking this works or is legitimate. We fail to realize that the supernatural things we want to avoid are no more supernatural (or “weird”) than the things that define the Christian faith. What’s so “normal” about the virgin birth, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the hypostatic union of the incarnation (Jesus was 100% God and 100% man)?
Why don’t we “de-mythologize” those things in our Bible while we earnestly try to deny supernaturalist interpretations of other parts of the Bible? It’s a hopelessly inconsistent and self-focused approach to say part of what the Bible says about the supernatural spiritual world are fine but other aspects of its portrayal of that same non-human world are too strange and in need of being explained away.
What is the difference between a cherub and a seraph in Scripture? They appear to be different from their biblical descriptions (number of wings, faces, etc.).
Michael S. Heiser: There’s no difference conceptually. Both terms are job descriptions of a divine being whose role it was to protect sacred space from defilement—to guard the presence of God. The terms and the descriptions are not anatomy lessons—spirit beings are not embodied by definition. Rather, the descriptions in the visions of the prophets serve as metaphors for describing a role. They are basically job descriptions.
The terms are drawn from ancient Near Eastern iconography (Mesopotamian and Egypt, respectively). They utilize the imagery these civilizations used to describe divine beings who guarded the presence of gods or god-kings. We know that because we have the iconography (sculptures, paintings) in their appropriate context. The Babylonian context for Ezekiel’s cherubim is obvious from the first chapter. Most Bible readers don’t realize, though, why (historically) Israelites living during the eras of Ahaz, Uzziah, Hezekiah, and Isaiah would have recognized Egyptian motifs. There was a lot of royal interaction with Egypt then.
What does it mean, exactly, that Satan (the devil) is “the ruler of the dead?” And where can we find this in Scripture? Related: What does it mean that Satan once had “the power of death” — Hebrews 2:14 — implying that he doesn’t have it anymore.
Michael S. Heiser: The idea comes from several trajectories. On one hand, you have verses like Heb 2:14 (“Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself [Jesus] likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil”).
The point isn’t that Satan pulls a lever somewhere and someone dies. The idea is that all humans will die—we are not immortal—because of the transgression of the Eden that the serpent instigated. He was cast down to the underworld, the realm of the dead (I discuss the terms and motifs behind that at length in Unseen Realm), which is where all humans are destined to go and remain because of the Eden tragedy. God’s plan of salvation was designed to remove humans from the realm of the dead. Humanity followed the serpent in rebellion, and so his domain is where humanity goes.
But our destiny can be different because of God’s plan. On the other hand, there are theological ideas running in the background that produce the same idea. In Canaanite religion, for example, Baal was lord of the Underworld. He was called baʿal zebul. Sound familiar? In Ugaritic it means “prince Baal,” but by the time of the New Testament it became a descriptive title for Satan. Baal, of course, was the major deity-rival to the God of Israel. He was the lead adversary to Yahweh in Israelite religious context. What people thought about Baal informed the way they thought about the Devil later on.
Regarding the origin of the devil (“Satan” as the NT calls him), in your view, specifically when, why, _and how _did he fall?
Michael S. Heiser: I believe that all Scripture tells us is that the being the New Testament calls Satan (and which it associates with the serpent in Eden) fell when he engaged Eve to steer her out of God’s will. Eve’s existence, purpose, and destiny were of no concern to the serpent figure (which I don’t believe was a mere animal—he was a divine being in rebellion against God). Fiddling with what God told her was above his pay grade; i.e., contrary to the supreme authority, which was God. We are not told he rebelled earlier than this. We have only this initial act of rebellion. Some folks appeal to the notion that he rebelled before the creation of humanity and took a third of God’s angels with him, but there is no passage in Scripture that teaches that. In fact the only place you find the “third of the angels” talk is in the last book of the Bible—Revelation 12.
But in that passage, the war in heaven is explicitly associated with the birth / first coming of the messiah, which is considerably after creation (and the Fall). As far as why he rebelled, we aren’t told specifically. But why would an otherwise intelligent being (like you and me) overstep authority? Several reasons come to mind, like self-interest and arrogance. Since there are a number of (Hebrew) inter-textual relationships between Genesis 3 and Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, and since those prophetic chapters use the tale of a divine rebel filled with hubris to malign the kings of Babylon and Tyre, respectively, I’d say we’re on safe ground to presume that self-interest and hubris are at the core of the rebellion.
The divine rebel story behind Isaiah 14:12-15 has the villain wanting to be like the Most High and above the stars of God (a term drawn directly out of Canaanite material for the divine council / heavenly host), it’s clear the villain wanted to be the highest authority in the supernatural world. He was a usurper propelled by his own arrogance.
How does your view fit in with Ezekiel 28:14, which some believe is a reference to the devil before he fell. However, assuming that interpretation is correct, he is called “an anointed cherub.” How does that fit into the idea that the devil was once a member of the Divine Council, which some believe?
Michael S. Heiser: I believe the “anointed cherub” phrase in this verse points to a divine rebel, not Adam as many biblical scholars want to suggest. There are many reasons for this, some of which are very technical. Readers of _Unseen Realm _will get the overview, but if they really want the details, they should read through the companion website to the book, moreunseenrealm.com (click the tab for Chapter 11).
Since the Old Testament doesn’t use terms like “devil” and never applies the term “satan” to the serpent (in any passage), this question requires more unpacking than an interview can provide (i.e., it’s best to just read the book where I can take two chapters to go through it). But I’ll try and compress a few thoughts.
On one level, by definition every divine being loyal to God is a member of the divine council, presuming “council” is understood as the collective body of heavenly beings who serve God. There are of course tiers of authority in the council, but the idea can be collective as well. So, prior to his rebellion, the being that came to Eve and caused her to sin and that later became the known as the devil was a member of God’s council, broadly defined, merely because he was a spirit being. But since we have no prior history of him before Genesis 3, we can’t say much beyond that. (The serpent of Genesis 3 is not the satan figure of Job 1-2 because of a certain rule of Hebrew grammar [again, you have to read the book], so Job 1-2 isn’t much help there).
Some scholars want to restrict the term “divine council” to the “sons of God” tier, presuming them to be the only decision makers, but this understanding doesn’t reflect the variability of the terms and ideas found in ancient texts parallel to the Hebrew Bible from which the council metaphor is drawn in many instances. The analogy of human government in civilizations that had a conception of a divine council makes that point clear. Not all members of a king’s “government” would be directly involved in decision making. There are layers of advisors who have input. But these governments had service staff or “lesser bureaucrats” who were nevertheless part of the king’s administration.
Perhaps a modern analogy of government in the United States will help make the point. We can speak of the federal legislature, by which we mean that branch of government responsible for passing laws. The term “Congress” is a synonym. However, our Congress has two parts: the Senate and the House. Decision-making members of these two bodies, and hence the Congress, are elected. The House and Senate both have service staff (e.g., “guardian officers” like the Sergeant at Arms). Though they have no decision-making power, they are nevertheless part of “Congress” in certain contexts where that term is used.
For example, saying “Congress was in session” does not mean that all service staff were given the day off. “Congress” can therefore refer to only those elected officials who make laws, or can refer to the entire bureaucratic apparatus of the federal legislature. As we will see in this discussion, the heavenly bureaucracy (council) is layered and its members serve God in different but related ways.
Rebellion against God results in being cast out of his service. God doesn’t run the affairs of the spiritual world or our world with rebels on his payroll. They are cast to the Underworld (in the case of the Eden rebel), or a special place in the Underworld (e.g., the offenders of Genesis 6:1-4, who are, to quote Peter and Jude, “kept in chains of gloomy darkness” or “sent to Tartarus”). There are more divine rebels than that in the Bible, but hopefully that scratches the surface enough.
In the book, you argue persuasively that Deuteronomy 32:8 and Psalm 82 are speaking about God assigning heavenly beings to oversee each nation in the world (after Babel). How do you envision an unfallen heavenly being specifically carrying out the tasks listed in Psalm 82? Namely, _defending the just, defending the weak and the fatherless; upholding the cause of the poor and the oppressed. _This was God’s role for them before they rebelled, but how do you envision them doing this work exactly?
Michael S. Heiser: He would do what God would do. God’s standards for justice are revealed in his moral laws, in how he tries to get humans (his imagers) to relate to each other, and in true worship. Biblical theologians encapsulate all that in the concept of “order” (the opposite of which is “chaos”).
Ruling the way God wants you to rule means fostering the ordered relationships he desires, not because he is a killjoy, but because that order maximizes human happiness and love for God. Part of that is worshipping only the true God and no other. Psalm 82’s diatribe against the fallen gods is directly linked to justice because, in the biblical worldview, failing at just living produces chaos on earth—and it’s the job of superior beings to make sure that doesn’t happen. Instead, the picture we get in Psalm 82 runs from neglect that causes chaos to stirring the pot of chaos, thereby making the lives of people miserable.
Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air” in Ephesians 2. What do you think that means exactly?
Michael S. Heiser: On one hand, “air” is part of the vocabulary for the spiritual world—the world which humans do not inhabit, but which divine beings do inhabit. But “air” was also a descriptor for the heavens below the firmament in Israelite cosmology—still distinguishable from God’s abode, which was above the firmament (Isa 40:22; Job 22:13; cp. Gen 1:7 to Psa 29:10). The “air” metaphor allowed people to think of the spiritual world in terms of (a) not being the realm of humans, and (b) still beneath the presence of God, or the place where God lives.
That meant Satan wasn’t in God’s presence or in control of God’s domain. Angels could be sent into the world to assist humans and would of course be opposed by those spiritual beings in control of earth’s “air space” so to speak. Ultimately, the spiritual world has no measurable parameters, or latitude and longitude (the celestial sphere is no help locating it!). Human writers have to use the language of “place” to describe something place-less (in terms of what we, as embodied beings, can understand). For that reason, it isn’t always a neat picture.
Throughout Ephesians, the phrase “heavenly places” is used in a positive sense. God’s people are seated with Christ in heavenly places (Eph. 2). All spiritual blessings reside in Christ in heavenly places (Eph. 1). However, also in Ephesians, we are told that evil principalities and powers operate in heavenly places (Eph. 6). In your view, what are the “heavenly places” in Ephesians and how can both evil spirits and Christians occupy them at the same time?
A few months ago, there was a 60-day preview of Unseen Realm on LOGOS and Michael Heiser asked some of his more veteran readers to help shepherd newcomers to the material on the FaithLife Forum.
Growing out of those discussions has been what I hope to be the first sister website and forum for writers, artists, and believers looking to interact with others on the material: DivineCouncil.org.
What is it?
It’s a full website & forum with three writers contributing to the front page blog. I hope the site may also serve as an outlet for others. So, if there are any believing writers, artists, photographers etc. Looking to contribute, this might be a good fit for you.
The forum part of the site is structured around the Unseen Realm in terms of the overarching missions of Jesus. We are organizing it to be a central hub for small groups to share materials and study the Word of God, wherever they are on the planet!
So What?
There’s a special resource manager setup to disseminate materials to small groups and make it easier to find things to bring to your church. Each resource can be reviewed, and have discussions formed around them, so people know how they can be used, the ideal audience, attributions, etc.
There’s also a live chat area, so you might be able to catch fellow listeners online for a brief chat while you’re on the forum.
Better than Facebook!
Facebook is fun, but if you’re tired of conversations scrolling off the screen (and other FB pitfalls) the private forum environment is more conducive to organized and focused discussions that can be searched later by yourself and others.
So, if you’re looking for a more private and trusted environment for discussions around this material you have another option available in which to do that. And, if your looking to start a small group, our forum may be the ideal place in which to find, organize, and disseminate the optimal subjects of study for your group!
What Next?
Over 50 people have signed-up to the forum in the first week, and the platform will scale up to as large as it needs to be.
If you’d like to use the forum to organize (and optimize) your small group, send Terence an e-mail at tg@McGillespie.com so he can set you up.
Nathan, Terence, and Zechariah hope DivineCoucil.org will fill a need for the Kingdom, empower small groups, and be a worthy site for the Church.
The First Indictment of the gods of the Nations & its Theological Significance for Everyday Life
Deuteronomy 6:4-15 (ESV):[The Shemah] 4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates… 13 It is the Lord your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear. 14 You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you— 15 for the Lord your God in your midst is a jealous God—lest the anger of the Lord your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth.”
The Lower g gods are Real
We tend to think the lower g gods are make believe. That they are idols of wood and stone. While the idols they inhabit are wood, stone, and sometimes gold or silver, the lower g gods that people worship are real, just ask anyone in India. If you know where to look, the Bible confirms this all throughout scripture. The best example, however, is Psalm 82:
Psalm 82 (ESV): God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. 4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!
God pronouncing judgment of other gods??? And why does God seem to be angry that they have ruled unjustly over mankind (v.2-5)?
Because behind every evil nation is a pantheon of lower g gods (fallen angels) entertaining their fantasy to be worshiped as divine:
Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (ESV):“When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 9 But the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.”
But when did God disinherit, divide up mankind and fix the borders of the nations?
The Importance of the Tower of Babel
At the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11) God divides a united and rebellious mankind and confuses the language of humans who then go on to form the nations of this world (Genesis 10 Table of Nations).
Note: there are 70 nations listed in Genesis 10. We’ll come back to 70 later
The Tower of Babel was a ziggurat. What’s a ziggurat?
Ziggurat
Ziggurats were man made, stepped buildings, in the shape of a mountain. In the Ancient Near East, deity was thought to inhabit mountain tops. The gods descending from the heavens would surely want the best real estate far away from pesky humans and so it was believed that they lived atop mountains.
Humans wishing to barter a deal with the lower g gods would build ziggurats with a temple at the top for worship of that deity. They would bring the god to them, instead of going to the god. God told Noah after the flood to “fill the earth”. Humans responded:
Genesis 11:3-4 (ESV):And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
Notice how the bricks are sealed with tar (bitumen)? That means that The Tower of Babel was not only going to reach the heavens… it was also going to be waterproof! Mankind didn’t believe God’s promise never to flood the earth again and sought to build a waterproof tower to protect themselves as they bartered for a better deal.
So God comes down and essentially says, “you want to worship other gods, go ahead. You can have each other. Israel/the Church will be mine.” God disinherits the nations and then IMMEDIATELY sets about bringing them back to Him. That is why Abraham is called in the very next chapter… to bless the nations. They are not forgotten about.
This brings us to The Exodus
Each plague in Exodus 7-12 is aimed at the Egyptian pantheon of gods to show the Egyptians, their gods, and Pharaoh that only YHWH is God:
Exodus 12:12 (ESV):For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord.
10 Plagues Jehovah vs gods
The number 10 is USUALLY a very bad number in the Old Testament as it most often was thought to symbolize judgment. There are 10 generations from Adam to Noah and the flood. There are 10 generations between Noah and the judgment at Babel. How many plagues were visited on Egypt? 10. How many of the 12 tribes were taken captive by the Assyrians never to be heard from again? 10. How many horns does the beast nation have in Revelation? 10.
The fact that these 10 plagues of judgment happen at Passover is NOT a coincidence.
We are LITERALLY Exodused out of the nations of this world to the children of God.
Passover, the Firstborn & Jesus
At Passover, YHWH delivers the children of Israel out of the evil nation of Egypt as the firstborn of Egypt are buried.
On their way out of Egypt, Israel/the Church is given gold and silver from the Egyptians as Israel’s wedding gift, a dowry before its marriage ceremony to YHWH at Mt. Sinai:
Exodus 12:35-36 (ESV):…for they had asked the Egyptians for silver and gold jewelry and for clothing. 36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.
Israel is the bride and YHWH is the bridegroom. At Mt. Sinai a marriage will take place.
On their way out of Egypt, Israel also vacates the Tomb of Joseph to bury Joseph’s bones in the promised land:
Genesis 50:24-26 (ESV):And Joseph said to his brothers, “I am about to die, but God will visit you and bring you up out of this land to the land that he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” 25 Then Joseph made the sons of Israel swear, saying, “God will surely visit you, and you shall carry up my bones from here.” 26 So Joseph died, being 110 years old. They embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.
400 years later…
Exodus 13:19 (ESV):Moses took the bones of Joseph with him, for Joseph had made the sons of Israel solemnly swear, saying, “God will surely visit you, and you shall carry up my bones with you from here.”
This foreshadows the New Testament where WE—the Church, Israel—are saved at Passover… as the firstborn of God is buried and the Tomb of Joseph is vacated.
[see chart for Typological below connections between Joseph and Jesus]
The Israelites will forever live in the shadow of the enormous cost of their freedom. After the all the firstborn of Egypt are killed in Exodus 12, God IMMEDIATELY claims the firstborn of Israel in Exodus 13:1-3:
Exodus 13:1-3 (ESV):The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Consecrate to me all the firstborn. Whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine.” 3 Then Moses said to the people, “Remember this day in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of slavery, for by a strong hand the Lord brought you out from this place. No leavened bread shall be eaten.
The firstborn was to be circumcised on the 8th day and bought at a price ranging from a Lamb to two turtle doves depending on the economic status of the parents. It served as a constant reminder of what was done for the children of Israel. Israel was delivered from an evil nation ruled by gods that were hostile both to humans and to YHWH.
Jesus the Bridegroom, the Wedding Ceremony & the First Lord’s Supper
After the Exodus out of Egypt, God leads Israel to Mt. Sinai, also known as the “mountain of God” (Exodus 3:1, 18:5). But why bring Israel to a mountain?
Remember, deity lives atop mountains in the Ancient Near East. But most importantly, to the Israelites, the Garden of Eden was thought to be on top of God’s mountain. This can be seen when Ezekiel calls the King of Tyre, none other than Satan incarnate:
Ezekiel 28:13-14 (ESV):“You were in Eden, the garden of God… 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God…”
In the Garden of Eden, what do you have? You have water flowing from sacred space. You have a man’s side being opened up (blood) as he receives his bride. On the Cross, what do you have? Blood and water flowing from sacred space as Jesus, the new Adam, His side is opened up and He receives His Bride, the Church. Jesus is arrested in a garden. On the hill where he is crucified there’s a garden. He’s laid to rest in that garden. After the resurrection he’s confused for a gardener. The NT writers are clear. Jesus is the new Adam, succeeding where Adam failed. We are going back to Eden. Back to the Garden of God.
Adam and Eve were the Bible’s first arranged marriage. God’s original plan, to make all the earth Eden, had been delayed through sin but would not be thwarted.
In Exodus, God is bringing Israel to Mt. Sinai because Israel, like Adam and Eve, will be charged with spreading Eden to the ends of the earth. Heaven and earth would be reunited. But in order to save the world and humankind on the Cross, YHWH would need to protect the bloodline through which He would one day redeem all of mankind. This would be done through a covenant with Israel in another arranged marriage ceremony.
Jeremiah makes this explicit in Jeremiah 31:32:
Jeremiah 31:32 (ESV):“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, THOUGH I WAS THEIR HUSBAND, declares the Lord.
Israel arrives at Mt. Sinai in Exodus 19:1 where God immediately announces his upcoming marriage to Israel:
Exodus 19:3-6 (ESV):…“Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
Israel consecrates itself to prepare for its marriage to YHWH by washing their clothes and abstaining from marital relations with one another.
Then something interesting happens…
In Exodus 24:9-11, 70 ELDERS (the same number of nations that were disinherited at Babel) ascend the mountain and have a wedding feast with the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ:
Exodus 24:9-11:“Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.”
This is the first Lord’s Supper in the Bible and it occurs right after the marriage ceremony at Sinai. It will be repeated in the upper room before Jesus’s death, and again at the end of Revelation as the Church celebrates the return of her bridegroom, Jesus Christ, in the most massive cosmic wedding reception recorded in all of scripture.
Israel remains at Sinai for 1 year before their journey into the wilderness. Why? Because…
Deuteronomy 24:5 (ESV):“When a man is newly married, he shall not go out with the army or be liable for any other public duty. He shall be free at home one year to be happy with his wife whom he has taken.
We Are The Bride Of Christ Called Out Of The Nations To Be In Communion With Our King
“Politics is the church’s worst problem. It is her constant temptation, the occasion of her greatest disasters, the trap continually set for her by the prince of this world.”
—JACQUES ELLUL
Contrary to popular belief, the OT takes a very dim view of earthly kings…
1 Samuel 8:4-19 (ESV):Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said to him, “Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.” 6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. 8 According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. 9 Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”
10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking for a king from him. 11 He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”
19 But the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel. And they said, “No! But there shall be a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
The book of Judges ends with a woman being raped and chopped up into 12 pieces before a fratricidal war breaks out in Israel. Why? Because “25 In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes” Judges 21:25 (ESV). This is a Messianic prophecy. Son of God, Prince of Peace, Savior of the World, Gospel. Those of us who grew up in Christian homes have just always accepted these titles of Jesus without knowing their origin. Every single one of these titles was used of caesar. Caesar was the son of god, the prince of peace, the savior of the world. Rome spread peace through war, and after victory in battle was achieved, messengers were sent throughout the empire to proclaim the good news… to proclaim the “gospel.” Afterwards Caesar would send apostles to the newly conquered territory. The sole job of an apostle was to get a conquered nation ready for a new system of government.
When NT authors steal these titles, and apply them to Jesus and the Church, they are making politically treasonous statements. This is a death penalty offense. As long as the Church is pledging allegiance to this or that president or adhering to a republican or democrat plan for salvation the Church will be divided.
We tend to bifurcate politics and salvation. We have our Jesus over here in one box and we are going to heaven and that allows us to have our politics over here in another box and so we can have our spiritual salvation and our earthly politics. We can have our cake and eat it too. Unfortunately, the Bible itself does not allow this.
Be it Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome or America scripture is clear…
Revelation 18:5 (ESV):“come out of her my children lest you share in her plagues…”
This is Exodus language and a warning to those of us who live as immigrants, foreigners and exiles in Babylon. Remember…
John 18:36 (ESV):“My Kingdom is not of this world.”
After the marriage at Sinai, Israel and Judah would be judged by YHWH for political adultery. Ezekiel 23 graphically and undeniably portrays how God views sharing his Church with the governments and militaries of this world. Israel and Judah’s involvement in politics and militarism is described as an insatiable adulterous wife whoring herself out to men with genitalia the size of donkeys and ejaculate like that of horses…
Ezekiel 23:4, 11-27 (ESV):Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem…. 11 “Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sister in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister. 12 She lusted after the Assyrians, governors and commanders, warriors clothed in full armor, horsemen riding on horses, all of them desirable young men. 13 And I saw that she was defiled; they both took the same way. 14 But she carried her whoring further. She saw men portrayed on the wall, the images of the Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion, 15 wearing belts on their waists, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them having the appearance of officers, a likeness of Babylonians whose native land was Chaldea. 16 When she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoring lust. And after she was defiled by them, she turned from them in disgust. 18 When she carried on her whoring so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned in disgust from her sister. 19 Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt 20 and lusted after her lovers there, whose members [genitalia] were like those of donkeys, and whose issue [ejaculate] was like that of horses. 21 Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts.
22 Therefore, O Oholibah, thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I will stir up against you your lovers from whom you turned in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side: 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, desirable young men, governors and commanders all of them, officers and men of renown, all of them riding on horses. 24 And they shall come against you from the north with chariots and wagons and a host of peoples. They shall set themselves against you on every side with buckler, shield, and helmet; and I will commit the judgment to them, and they shall judge you according to their judgments. 25 And I will direct my jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in fury. They shall cut off your nose and your ears, and your survivors shall fall by the sword. They shall seize your sons and your daughters, and your survivors shall be devoured by fire. 26 They shall also strip you of your clothes and take away your beautiful jewels. 27 Thus I will put an end to your lewdness and your whoring begun in the land of Egypt, so that you shall not lift up your eyes to them or remember Egypt anymore.
This is how the Word of the LORD describes political idolatry and the judgment the Church heaps on Herself as a result of failing the test of Luke 4:5-6:
Luke 4:5-6 (HSBC):[The Temptation of Jesus by Satan] 5 So he took Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 The Devil said to Him, “I will give You their splendor and all this authority, because it has been given over to me, and I can give it to anyone I want. 7 If You, then, will worship me, all will be Yours.”
both parties same demons
Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (ESV):When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 9 But the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
Isaiah 34:2 (ESV):For the Lord is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter.
Isaiah 40:17 (ESV):All the nations are as nothing before him, they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.
Revelation 11:18 (ESV):The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”
The early Church didn’t have this problem. They suffered and died violent deaths to avoid politics. The entire book of Revelation is written to these people, to warn them that they cannot deny Jesus and enter the Kingdom of God. To remain faithful until death. And they were. Anyone coming the Jesus Christ having worked in government had to renounce their office or be rejected by the Church…
“In us, all zeal in the pursuit of glory and honor is dead. So we have no pressing inducement to take part in your public meetings, nor is there anything more entirely foreign to us than the affairs of State.” — Tertullian to the Romans circa 195 AD
Taitian, in AD 160, agreed when he said: “I do not wish to be a King. I am not anxious to be rich.
I decline military command. I detest fornication. I am not impelled by an insatiable love of gain to go to sea. I do not contend for military honors. I am free from a mad thirst for fame. I despise death. Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it! Live to God!”1
Origen also wrote to Celsus in an attempt to explain the peculiar Christian practice of noninvolvement with Roman politics, saying: “It is not for the purpose of escaping public duties that Christians decline public offices, but that they may reserve themselves for a diviner and more necessary service in the Church of2
Clement of Alexandria, in 195 AD, said, “We have no country on earth. Therefore, we can disdain earthly possessions.”3
And Tertullian wrote, in 212 AD: “As for you, you are a foreigner in this world, a citizen of Jerusalem, the city above. Our citizenship, the Apostle says, is in heaven. You have your own calendar. You have nothing to do with the joys of this world. In fact, you are called to the very opposite. For the world will rejoice but you will mourn.”4
“The new ones to be accepted are questioned by the teachers about the reason for their decision before they hear the Word. Those who bring them shall say whether they are ready for it and what their situation is…Whoever has a demon needs purification before he takes part in the instruction. The professions and trades of those who are going to be accepted into the community must be examined. The nature and type of each must be established. A pander, one who keeps a brothel, shall give it up or be rejected. A sculptor or an artist must be warned not to make idolatrous pictures; he shall give it up or be rejected. If anyone is an actor or impersonator in the theater, he shall give it up or be rejected. A charioteer, an athlete, a gladiator, a trainer of gladiators, or one who fights wild beasts or hunts them or holds public office at the circus games shall give it up or be rejected. A pagan priest or guardian of idols shall give it up or be rejected. A military constable must be forbidden to kill. If he is commanded to kill in the course of his duty, he must not take this upon himself, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or a civic magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword, shall give it up or be rejected.
“Anyone taking part in baptismal instruction, or anyone already baptized who wants to become a soldier shall be sent away, for he has despised God. A prostitute, a sodomite, one who has mutilated himself or who does unmentionable things shall be rejected because he is defiled. A magician shall not come up for examination either. An enchanter, an astrologer, a diviner, a soothsayer, a seducer of the people, one who practices magic with pieces of clothing, one who speaks in demonic riddles, one who makes amulets: all these shall desist or be rejected. The slave who is a concubine and who has reared her children and has no relationship except with her master may become a hearer. If it is otherwise she must be rejected. Whoever has a concubine shall leave her or marry her legally. If he refuses he must be rejected. Should we have missed anything here, practical life will teach you, for we all have the spirit of God.
—Hippolytus, Church Order in The Apostolic Tradition 16; ca. A.D. 218.
So if we accept the Bible as God’s word, and God’s word tells us that the nations of this world are given over to the devil (Luke 4:5-6) and his angels (Deuteronomy 32:8-9), and that is enraged at all the nations (Isaiah 34:2) and counts them less than nothing (Isaiah 40:17) and that on the last day the nations and those who destroy the earth will be judged (Revelation 11:18) because Jesus’ Kingdom is truly not of this world, why then do we feel the need to vote for this or that caesar? Why then to do we talk circles around God’s word in a futile effort to exalt practicality over and above obedience?
It’s because we have forgotten the words and the practice of Early Church. Since Constantine, the Church has been pledging it’s allegiance to Rome, to Babylon. Again this is why Revelation 18;5 tells us to “Come out of her my children, lest you share in her plagues.”
I’ll close with a quotation from Preston Sprinkle’s Fight: A Christian Case for Non-Violence…
“But allegiance to Jesus’s kingdom often clashes with all earthly ones, and the Philippians feel the tension. This is why Paul commands them, “Live out your citizenship [polistheuamai] in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ” (Phil. 1: 27, author’s translation). Some translations interpret this command as “walk in a manner worthy” rather than “live out your citizenship in a manner worthy,” but the Greek word polistheuamai does not simply mean “walk” or “live” but has to do with citizenship. 3 Even if you don’t know Greek, you can probably tell that the word polistheuamai has something to do with politics. The word contains the root polis, which means “city” and gives us words like politics and metropolis. Polistheuamai is a verb, so it means something like “act like a citizen,” “be a good citizen,” or “live out your citizenship” as I translated it above.
But notice what Paul is doing here. He does not encourage the believers at Philippi to be good citizens of Rome, but to live out their citizenship in allegiance to Jesus. Many in the church probably have Roman citizenship. They are tempted to find their pride and identity in Rome instead of in God’s kingdom. In the same way, it’s tempting for American Christians to find their pride and identity in American citizenship rather than in their heavenly one. Such allegiance to Rome (or America) makes good sense to the world but finds no support in the New Testament.5
One of the things I have seen among Christians who have been influenced by the Divine Council framework is the tendency to assume that every non-Christian religion springs fully formed from the minds of our Spiritual enemies. There is also an inclination to only glance at the surface of a particular mythology or religion, and as long as it contains enough of the tropes and motifs one expects, one doesn’t examine it any more deeply.
My goal in this article is to make people aware of some of the assumptions we can make when approaching other mythologies and religions.
So how does a deeper examination of mythology and religion help the Christian living today? I plan to use the very unique mythology of the ancient Norse to further explore this question and hopefully provide us window into the propaganda machine of the fallen Principalities and Powers.
Thor, Norse Mythology, and the Usual Suspects
Quite a lot of you have probably seen the new Thor movies by Marvel, and some of you may already know some of the basic story of Norse mythology. On the surface, it is a story with a lot of the familiar motifs. There is a single supreme god who, with his family, make up a council of gods.
Norse mythology has a classic demonic enemy. Their gods may not live at the top of a mountain, but they live at the top of the World Tree. It has a flood myth complete with evil giants. It even contains the classic Thunder-god, and his battle against the evil sea dragon of chaos. It seems like a straightforward story, not all that different from the mythologies we have seen before.
Why should anyone read any further? After all, we possess the Bible “the Myth that is true”, the story from which all the other myths originate. Well, if one does decide to take a closer look at the story, things start to get weird.
Death of the gods?
We find out that this is not the usual story of gods triumphing against all enemies but instead a tragedy in which all the gods die in a final battle against evil.
Unlike the triumphant stories we are used to reading, where the thunder-god defeats the dragon of chaos and brings new order, the thunder-god instead dies of his wounds almost immediately after slaying the dragon. We don’t get the traditional time-line of world creation, creation of humanity and then a flood. What one will observe instead is a combination of the flood and creation story, and the evil giants who are mostly wiped out by the flood. The surviving giants then become the demonic enemies of the gods long before humanity is created.
Troubling Questions
If this story was fabricated out of whole cloth by the Infernal Powers, then one is left with some troubling questions:
Why would the Powers of darkness create a mythology where they themselves die at the end?
Many of you are probably familiar with the Genesis 6 account, the Book of 1st Enoch, and the struggle against the Giant Nephilim clans throughout the Bible. If these are those same Giants, why would they write a story where their fictional representations are destroyed by the Giants?
Why the odd combination of flood and creation myth?
What if we take a different approach?
Historical Human Figures as ‘gods’
What if one assumes that these gods are partially based off of historical human figures?
If Odin and the Aesir were an actual tribe of humans living in a post-flood world instead of gods, then the whole story almost tells itself. We see the Aesir tribe’s brief struggle with the neighboring Vanir tribe and their long conflict with a tribe of Giants. We see the chief and patriarch Odin adopt the orphaned child of one of the giants that he has just killed. Loki is raised as Odin’s son, and he returns the favor by murdering his adoptive brother, Baldur, for his own twisted amusement. Loki then returns to his giant kin and leads them to exterminate the Aesir in a final battle nearly wiping out the Aesir leaving only enough survivors to pass the story down to their children.
History becomes Legend, then Myth
The ancient dead heroes are honored by their descendants, and as oral history is passed down through the generations, all the older pre-flood myths are blended into the story. To quote the Lord of the Rings movie, “History became legend. Legend became myth. And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost.” …as the corrupt gods whisper and guide from the shadows.
The tragic struggle of the Aesir against overwhelming evil that captures our imaginations to this very day is partially obscured under the false mantle of godhood. Their nobility and humanity are perverted as men are strangled and hung from yew trees as sacrifices to the Hanged god. This is one possible explanation for this particular story that better explains the oddities present in its narrative.
So how would a closer examination of non-Christian religion and mythology aid the believer living today?
A Culture Starving for Supernatural Content
One can use what one learns about how our enemies have influenced the cultures of the distant past to see how they might be manipulating our modern culture through Hollywood, literature, and religion. And such an examination can also provide one with powerful apologetics and polemics against the examined religions, still here, or those resurfacing in a modern culture starved of supernatural content.
Demonic Subversion of the Truth
For example, one walks up to a modern neo-pagan, who worships the Norse pantheon, and if all one tells him is that the story and people he has based his faith on are only a demonic parody of the true faith, how will he respond?
Or instead, one could show him how his religion ties into the Christian narrative, and how the story and heroes of his people have been subverted and used as a mask by the fallen Powers of the Bible …
Assumptions only take us so far. When we actually start to think and examine more deeply, we are able to move forward.
My favorite book of 2014 was The Supernatural Worldview: Examining Paranormal, Psi, and the Apocalyptic, by Cris Putnam.
The reason the book is important is summed up by Chuck Missler in his foreword:
How will you deal with empirical validations of extrasensory perceptions? Of near-death experiences? Non-biblical spirits? Evidence that the mind goes far beyond the organ we know as the brain?1
… the current trends toward a “Supernatural Worldview” will prove to be a critical challenge to those who take their personal destiny seriously, and we can certainly anticipate that our adversaries will exploit these challenges to advance their own agendas.1
Cris Putnam And Derek Gilbert On “The Supernatural Worldview”, Parts 1 & 2
Cris Putnam And Gary Stearman On “The Supernatural Worldview”
Table of Contents
— Foreword by Chuck Missler
Chapters:
1. Paranormal Witness to Gospel Witness
2. The Supernatural Worldview of REALITY
3. The Paranormal Paradigm Shift
4. The Ethos of Demythologization and the Excluded Middle
5. Near-Death-Experience Science Drives the Paradigm Shift
6. Telepathy, Dreams, and Remote Viewing
7. Precognition, Theology, and Watchman’s Warning
8. Apparitions, Hauntings, and Poltergeists
9. Mediums, Ghosts, Familiar Spirits, and the Supernatural Worldview
10. Satan, Demons, and the Ghost Hypothesis
11. Spiritual Warfare, Juvenile Prophets of Baal, and the Zombie Apocalypse
12. The Supernatural Worldview of the Bible
SkyWatchTV 3/7/17: Tribute to Cris Putnam
I was shocked to learn that Cris died, last week. Here’s a tribute to a tenacious researcher, talented author, believer, and husband, by the folks at SkyWatch:
Chuck Missler, Foreword to The Supernatural Worldview: Examining Paranormal, Psi, and the Apocalyptic, Defense Publishing. ↩
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The reason the book is important is summed up by Chuck Missler in his foreword: